Frames and Intimate Knowledge.txt

Frames and Intimate Knowledge
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Dijiste:
hello

everybody I just finished recording this

I

thought um but for the second time uh

not with this recording but with others

I failed to record this let just check

this recording okay yeah look like it

is

um I actually forgot previously to bring

my mic in so maybe this will be a little

better this

time it's always very disappointing when

one begins a project and I was very

pleased with the recording I made

previously um and then discovers no it

didn't happen right the recording

doesn't

exist I went through all of the topics

that I had in mind very

artfully and

um only to at the end of an hour and a

half discovering that it wasn't recorded

now recording itself um by the way you

want to think about that word like

recording um this has to do with the

word religion which comes from the same

base roots that we get ligaments from

right that which joins the features of

the body

together uh recording is a weird and and

very

peculiar

dangerous

process um

unpredictable and it doesn't give us a

onetoone Exemplar of what actually took

place I'm going to take a moment and

shut my door preemptively in case

there's some house noise which there

probably won't

be so the fit for today is Lone Wolf and

Cub I'll explain that in a moment I just

see to get the author's name um this is

one of my favorite mangas

probably actually my favorite

manga uh it's by um kazuo koi and GOI

Kojima um this is one of the books and

I'm wearing this in honor of my upcoming

interview which was supposed to happen

in a little while today but will happen

at some point in the near future show

you the fit one more time here love this

shirt it's impossible to get if you

happen to find one of these buy it for

me and send it to me um because I'd love

to have a second one love the story uh

this is in honor of my upcoming

interview with alond Hillman Dr alond

Hillman which I'm very excited about and

has been a long time in

preparation um I also with with luck

I'll be interviewing him

tomorrow as well as Dr Joanna

kuyawa um a brilliant author of the book

The Other goddess highly

recommended um and a a woman who has

spent her

life uh learning about and understanding

sort of the Mystic

feminine um which these days is a very

complex

topic uh indeed what it means to be

feminine or masculine has been drawn

rather furiously into question over the

past say a decade or

two um but i' I've really enjoyed her

work I've been listening to interviews

with her she's an amazing mind I'm super

excited about talking with her tomorrow

as well as Dr Hilman um who thinks of

himself as something of a ronin having

been subjected to a variety of uh shall

we say judgmental evictions from

Academia and other corners of the world

um Hilman is a self-described

classicist and is fascinated with the

distinction between our pictures of

ancient Greece and what was actually

going on there having read an incredible

amount of material written by people

writing in Greek um Hilman has a a very

uh radical and provocative view on these

matters which I'm looking forward to

exploring with him um similar I was

recently watching uh Dr kuya's

discussion with chance Gardner about

ancient

Egyptian mysticism and particularly art

and architecture which I will be

discussing uh

somewhat so the reason that I'm wearing

Lone Wolf in Cub is that Hilman thinks

of himself as a bit of a ronin and that

story is

about the Emperor's second and this is a

swordsman who achieves this Rank by um

sophisticated demonstration of his

abilities in the story he defeats a

member of I think the kagu

clan these are a clan of

Assassins and um people who employ

subterfuge and they frame

him uh by planting a Blasphemous plaque

in his Temple with the symbol and name

of the emperor on it as if okay so

what's in that Temple are these Memorial

wooden objects of the people that he

whose lives he took for the sake of the

emperor because his job is to preside

over harakiri or seppuku um

self-execution and in order to uh limit

the amount of suffering by the person

having been um directed to do this by

the Emperor the second holds their sword

at the ready and as they begin the

process beheads

them uh so lone Wolf and Cub in that

story uh the kagu if that's the right

name for the clan they they kill his

whole family and they frame him as

having uh blasphemed against the emperor

hoping that he will

be executed and that one of their Clan

can then take his role um he his wife is

killed but his infant son survives and

in a telling scene he presents the young

son the infant with a ball and a sword

puts his sword in the ground and he he

puts a ball there and he asks the child

choose and the child he tells the child

who's a non-verbal infant that if he

selects the ball

then uh he will send him to be with his

mother meaning he will you know kill his

child but if he s if he selects the

sword then they together will become

demons in the world and will go on a

journey

of Discovery and

Vengeance and so the child choos chooses

the sword so he becomes an assassin For

Hire with his baby um in a in a little

like cart that he carries with him um

it's fascinating story I like it a lot

the films are also excellent Lone Wolf

and Cub so that's the fit for today I'm

also wearing my Reddit hat from my dear

friend Mike

resle

[Music]

so you know I am someone who has had an

a profound uh long-term non-ordinary

experience which the first phase of

occurred in 2002

and um another phase which was different

but similar happened in

2009 and during that experience uh I

had another intelligence with my mind

that was capable of structuring it as it

pleased as if the same way that I can

use my hand it could use my mind except

far more profoundly and that resulted in

a broad array of non-ordinary Senses um

um I introduced this concept not to tell

that story here but because during that

experience it was as

if I had always had like 12 different

kinds of eyes that could see histories

and

Futures and into the structure of living

beings and their

lifespans as if the the world was had

always been the sort of

living um um being that is that is a

kind of a book that can be read by these

eyes without which it it's mostly

invisible and so for example I could if

I chose to I could look at someone and

know their name and where they were born

and their parents' names and if they'd

been injured when they were children or

had illnesses where they would die um

all kinds of astonishing things that

prior to that would certainly have

seemed impossible to me um I could

imagine that other humans might have

such abilities or experience but I'd

never had anything like that

myself uh and I mentioned this because

one of the things that was um

highlighted to me were histories of the

development of human cognition and the

development of life on other worlds and

the dangers to this world and all these

kinds of things but an early topic was

this sort of concept of one foot which

it you the the intelligence used to tell

me stories about how life came to

Earth and these stories were not

necessarily true um a vast portion of

the domain of insight has little to do

with what is true or not and when we

become very concerned with what is true

or

not um the field of our capacity for

understanding is radically limited and

much of insight has little to do with

what is true what it has to do with is

what helps you to see more profoundly to

to gain understanding and awareness um

and to relate

intelligently not just in the sense of

rationality intelligently in the sense

of the the spirit of insight

right and so you know we are often

especially as males we are trained to

dismiss that which we can determine is

not

true um particularly should it come from

the mouths of our lovers

but um that that's wildly unfortunate

because again although if you're talking

about something very simple for example

is the water boiling or not not a

problem right it's either boiling or not

it could be very hot and not be boiling

it could be cold and not be boiling um

so for simple pragmatic concerns in the

layer of our awareness with which

representational cognition is concerned

that stuff works pretty well for most of

the rest of things like ing existence or

what light is up to or the nature of

time or um relating intimately with our

capacities for experience and so on that

stuff doesn't work so great it it's not

basically either TR the simple fact of

the binary of Truth or false is

deceptively unuseful there and we humans

have been trained to transfer the

expectation of the continuity and

solidity of objects onto features of

cognition this is wildly unfortunate

uh it it blinds us to much of the

capacities of our

awareness intelligence are innate trans

sentients right more than merely

sentient which is natural to human

beings and probably to all other

creatures um so yeah early on this one

foot thing is going to become Central

later it was something that um one of my

son's friends Nish was discussing in his

uh in a recent recording that he made

about nagas and

snakes um he's an incredibly

sophisticated and well-educated mind in

terms of uh mysticism religious

traditions and particularly shiism and

Hinduism which uh Dr kuwa has also uh

had a long involvement

with um this one foot thing was

primarily uh it primarily highlighted

amibas and SES right when it was

discussing this principle of onef foot

and this turns out to be relevant to um

some of the discussion that occurred

between Dr kuyawa and chance Gardner I

strongly recommend you watch the video

that they made together and Chance's

work is brilliantly uh heartful

intelligent and

amazing so one of the things that I want

to talk about here is something that I

talk about a lot which which are which

is

how our innate capacities for

intimacy the thing that what we call

knowledge is actually a tokenized

reductive version

of Wonder awe imagination Discovery

curiosity play um and not just like

Discovery isn't merely determining what

is the case when I

learn I am transformed and and the field

of available Liberties to me expands

right unless what I'm learning is the

kind of thing that shuts that down and

much of representational cognition is

just that way the experience that I had

in 2002 which I often use the word toy

maker to refer to and I'm not intending

to talk a lot about that

today um but one of the things you know

I basically asked a very simple question

early on in that relationship which was

what happened to my people right how do

we get this messed up why are we like

this and the answers don't have to do

with what we would usually like to think

it's not selfishness and greed um it's

actually the eviction of a broad array

of potentials and faculties into tokens

that are easily exchanged right money is

a great

example um so he he presented a sort of

a parable to me early on in our in my

studies with him because being with that

mind was like being in a preschool run

by angels and Aliens I mean just all day

long every day just pouring into me

insight and

Visionary understandings of the nature

of you know everything the history of

living planets how they are destroyed

what happens with representational

cognitive species how we got that way

all of these kinds of things

which were as fascinating compelling

more fascinating compelling than any

kind of human information I've ever

encountered and there was no language

involved it was sort of a direct mind-

to- mind transmission of experience and

awareness and and understanding or

something beyond what we would think of

as intellect but not entirely

dissimilar and it it showed me a story

where I me I'm sure this has happened a

million times

a young girl is on the way to school

with her mom in the car and she sees

some birds and she gets super excited

she like Mom Mom the birds the birds

look at the birds of course the mom's

driving and you know she's tolerant of

the child's enthusiasm for you know the

first four or five days but every time

the child the child sees the birds and

and goes into you know ecstasies of the

birds the birds finally the mother says

oh those are just sparrows child just

kind of like what um and so the next day

you know the child's like oh Mom Mom The

Sparrows The Sparrows she's still

excited but over time the fact that she

has a token to refer to the phenomena

that was filled with mystery and

impossible wonder and joy that token

begins to replace her experience of

intimacy and joy and enthusiasm so six

days in she's like oh there's The

Sparrows right 10 days in she's like oh

Mom The Sparrows right and on like the

20th day she's like oh the birds and

back to the iPad right or whatever you

know so we all undergo this process of

in L languaging and in culturation which

mostly shuts down vast libraries of

faculties and abilities that are natural

to our form of life and the kinds of

beings that we

are and This Is tragically unfortunate

right once you learn what something

is that can end your exploration not

only of the phenomena of say a tree but

also of yourself because in

discovering the depth and the

potential of the referent that the word

tree points at your interiority should

elores right it should expand and become

amazing this is not what happens for

most of us learning the names of things

tends to

olude or inhibit our enthusiasm Wonder

awe playfulness

self-discovery um

exploration of existence right so you

know the adults um for their part have

already undergone this process and are

half dead inside if not nearly

completely uh and some of them aren't

right like some of us managed to

preserve um features of these originary

enthusia that we bring into incarnation

especially artists and writers and um

actors and Painters and musicians and so

forth right um the Arts turn out to be

one of the sort of the antithesis of the

graveyard but that too gets captured by

representational culture and

represented um as a

commodity so you know we

suffer uh from having over

structured representational

cognition that tends to shut down the

faculties that it should

Empower right and again in some of us we

manage to conserve or preserve some

features of this most of us are

concerned with um the big questions you

know what is life what is death uh why

is there something like

Injustice um but few of us will imagine

that it's a feature of how our cognition

gets structured not just by language but

by enculturation right by being immersed

with others whose Minds have been

structured this

way and that structure is sclerotic it

in terms of our

natural um inclinations for enthusiasm

Wonder

play Discovery research

um

creativity so I've been fascinated by

these ics for a long time and they for

they form a large part of the under

structure of my work as a cognitive

activist which is a

token um unfortunately learning what

something is can kill your enthusiasm

and wonder in awe about it

because uh in cognition it the token

becomes confused with insight about the

phenomena right and insight about the

phenomena only arises through a process

of

intimacy and we have this other stuff

that's kind of dead inside that we call

knowledge but that kind of knowledge is

more like the wrapping paper of a candy

bar that we never get to taste because

it's um it's Parts based it's clinical

it's

tokenized it is the pro the produce of

the rep Cog layer in human history

thought and behavior and that produce is

most mostly

blinding um if understanding the name of

something were the same as knowing what

it is we would know what the sun is or

what birth is or what death is or what

dreaming is or what love is about or all

of those things if you look very

carefully at human knowledge what you're

going to discover is something very

shocking there is not even one person

who knows what anything is what we have

are words and explanations that means to

cut and flatten that explain it means to

make a graph right a

flattening and it's very compelling to

be able to know the words of things when

I was younger um often if someone would

ask me if I if I knew the work of a

writer or something if I knew their name

I would say oh yeah yeah

sure if I knew the word for something I

presented as

if I understood in a deep way um what

that word pointed toward and that was me

being arrogant or you know kind of

peacocking which is something young man

are you know really good at um

eventually though I realized I if I

don't

know like it was much wiser for me to

declare that I don't know anything or

even well I've heard that word or I've

heard that name but fill me in in

traditional Blackfoot culture according

to my friend Ryan f first

diver um he has told me that it's

considered both rude and arrogant to

claim to know for example um one of the

important uh cultural stories or

creation uh

narratives and so if someone asks you

you know do you know the story of

Scarface you always say

no or at least you will not affirm

that you know it because if you do a

bunch of stuff happens immediately the

first is that you appear to be kind of a

know it all oh you know everything

already right and the second is you will

deprive yourself of everything you might

have learned in a retelling you are a

new person right here right now with

another being who has some knowledge and

is offering to share it it's kind of

like imagine if um you went to a dinner

party and someone said you know which

was carefully prepared by someone you

love and they said oh try try this and

you're like now I've had food

before see that's the problem with

representational

cognition there's an aspect of cognition

that thate that seems to want to pretend

to know a thing without having any

actual experience of it or very little

or very little knowledge right um just

because because it knows the word oh

that's a birch tree you know does anyone

know why there are trees what trees are

where organisms come from nope I mean if

you can find someone that even knows

what a rock is even simple objects that

we create we don't know what they are um

our tools actually give us the deceptive

impression of knowledge because I know

what a spoon is come on how much

intimacy could there be there well there

could be a lot because if we if we could

really see into the evolution history of

the mins that invented spoons right what

produced The Spoon there we would find

insight for sure but if I know what a

spoon is I'm done I'm out yeah it's just

a spoon on to the next thing one of my

close friends who you know could be

described as spectr if we were

interested in labels like that and I I

absolutely love this guy um he was

talking about his frustration with his

mom cuz she's really into going to visit

these trees every day that she loves

and and I remember him saying to me dude

it's just a bunch of trees do you have

any idea what trees are nope what he's

got is some words and what he knows is

that trees don't present to him in any

way that invites his curiosity or

intimacy they just seem to just stand

there like objects so why is anyone why

does my mom so excited to see them to go

be with them

right so as we you know as our

representational cognition is is

inculcated upon us by our cultures and

so forth um we tend to lock step with it

and we acquire the habit of thinking

that the word for something if we know

the word for something we know what it

is when in fact nobody knows what

anything is there's not a single person

you will find I mean if you find one

send them my way um and again there's

it's a matter of degree right like

knowing what a spoon is okay I'll go

along with that but even that we don't

know why there are objects or why there

are beings with Minds that make spoons

or any of that kind of thing um why

there is something rather than nothing

as if you know why isn't the only thing

we could know because it's not as if

there's a

reason right the question why implies a

reason we have these seven question

words by the way they all begin with W

which is like doubling your in your your

thought right there's someone asking the

question there's someone responding this

double youu yeah and except for one um

how and all of them except for how have

the second letter H which is like H

right imagine you're breathing on a

mirror and the little um little bubbles

of moisture appear all over it that each

reflect uniquely each reflect each other

and also you and the surface of the

mirror right this ha sound it's uh

rolent of the spirit

of transcendence and awareness and

Consciousness and thought in this way so

we have these seven question words and

what is particularly deceptive because

once you know what something

is you're likely

to shut down right your curiosity and

enthusiasm and wonder tend to die

out so these are

all these discussions are Preparatory to

where I'm trying to get to and

in fact it's not necessarily that

there's a reason or a purpose for

existence imagine that um without

physical beings like

us the possibility of purposive

orientation communication relation

thought imagining dreaming

it's not there right in order to have

purposive the field sort of possibility

space of existence right is very

fascinatingly linked to the to the

nature of physical existence so rather

than there being a reason it might be

for the existence of

purposive

relation right

um and I'm going to get back to that

purpose thing thing in a minute so in

watching in watching Dr kuya's

discussion with chance Gardner about the

Egyptian Mystics and Egyptian art and

architecture as if what they were doing

was Art um chance brilliantly

expressed that there are all these

correlations between the structure of

essentially um

the the structures on which the brain

stem right the structures around which

the the rest of the brain exists and

came into we imagine came into being

over evolutionary time if there ever was

really such a thing and um it's

fascinating right it's very clear the uh

relationships between um certain

cross-sections of the brain and Egyptian

art and

um also he proposed something that I

thought was really interesting which was

that uh he didn't necessarily think and

this is both him and Dr Cawa have had

profound uh Awakening experiences

non-ordinary experiences of their own

and he resisted the idea that what the

Egyptians were depicting were gods that

they worshiped instead he proposed that

they were principles that they were

aware of and that their own existence

and awareness Consciousness in

intelligence or you know orbited and I

think this is a very important idea

because imagine that you were a God or

an angel or something right or just

actually just imagine that you're a

person do you want to be worshiped think

carefully about this do you want like a

bunch of slaves who are just you can do

no wrong in their eyes they think you're

the best thing that ever walked on two

legs or do you want intimacy do you want

relational um efflorescence right like

like development Al awe and enthusiasm

and wonder because you know when we meet

or we love someone what happens is

there's both we are transformed by that

so the possibility space of

me uh is not just transformed a bunch of

new domains of self-awareness through

the relation with others and other

living beings and places expands

dramatically whereas the worshipper

thing not very exciting if you've ever

had somebody madly in love with you who

you didn't find very interesting you get

pretty quickly that the worship thing

does isn't fun right and people who are

famous they each uniquely relate with um

the possibility space of Fame but it

gets pretty old when people are like

asking you for your autograph and every

and you can't go anywhere without being

recognized and parazzi or like Paparazzi

or like taking your your photograph all

the time there's no

privacy everyone wants to know

everything that doesn't sound like a lot

of fun probably if they could not have

that part they'd give it up right if

they could get rid of that part they'd

give it

up so if you were a God would you want

to be worshiped what what what would

that Grant you

um now on the other hand there is so

even during my experience the C

unimaginable relational ecstasy between

me and the being or beings that were my

that were teaching me or with my mind

was unlike anything I'd ever imagined

like yeah it's not it's not worship but

it's Ador it's ecstatic ever expanding

adoration but it's mutual right it

wasn't just me you know fawning at the

feet of

a of a non-human intelligence of some

kind and you know I could make noises of

about what kind but I don't think

they're very useful um no there was

Mutual Wonder between us right it was

just it was at least as probably as

exciting for them to be relating

directly with a single human as it was

for me to be relating with them so

that's not mere worship adoration is

different from worship

um now you know when we have these sort

of very simplistic uh secular versions

of religion especially in Christianity

for example and perhaps also in um Islam

and some other religions as well um most

religions have layers right so the

secular layer tends to be mostly like

rep Cog stuff and also it's easily

compromised by people who want to take

advantage of it you know they want to

make money or have

crowds you know if you got 40,000 people

listening intently to you on stage and

paying you know 50 bucks ahead for two

hours of your sermon um then you might

as well be like a god yourself right and

you can pretend that you're there for

the sake of Jesus or right

whoever

um in fact you're probably not right uh

and this can you know this can get very

sort of Tangled Up and Confused

um so my point is that in religions

there are layers and as you get down

toward the monastic layer that their

Impressions and experience and what they

will have to say about Divine beings and

God and so forth is radically different

from what you'll see on the surface so

the fact that the surface level is

counterfeited shouldn't uh cause us to

entirely dismiss what's deep inside

there because deep inside there are

people who have devoted their entire

lives to the pursuit of intimacy with

the divine right right um so even if the

religion is rather misguided you know

the idea of like a punishing jealous

vicious God that sends you around

slaughtering people or that's kind of

weird to put it mildly

um I just want to highlight the fact

that this is very similar to how our

minds work right superficially you got

the tokens ah it's just a tree get a

little bit deeper you can learn the

biology of the tree and where it lives

and things more or less analytical about

it a little deeper you start to ask like

why are there trees and maybe you would

even ask some trees like who are your

people can you talk to me can you teach

me deeper than that you you might um

encounter intelligences capable of

elucidating features of the nature of

existence and origin and its

relationship with physical reality and

so forth uh deeper than that you might

have the obliteration of rep

representational cognition and the

ecstatic um catastrophic presence of

insight without subject or object right

so you know we humans are mostly blinded

by rep cob it's really dangerous stuff

it's very useful in the representational

layer of human behavior and culture

you'd be it'd be hard for you to get

along without that there if you wanted

to participate in that many of us don't

don't right we don't want to have to pay

rent or drive cars or any of that like

have a bank account or any of that stuff

right that's mostly misery for millions

of human beings but it seems to be

necessary because how well how where you

going to get food right medicine how do

you get Medical Care Dental Care uh

Insurance all these things

yeah but for most of human history there

weren't anything like that there were

healers probably

um so it can be deceptive and and you

know

we we moderns are even more confused

because we live in the era when

representations have become like the

swarming moras of images and sounds and

media and so forth so that we could you

know I think we're taking like 12

billion photographs of food per day and

that's so ironic because those

photographs cost beings to make okay the

food costs beings to make beings have to

die for the food to be

made

and I don't think people realize that if

you just keep taking photographs of food

pretty soon the upkeep of that library

of hundreds of billions of photographs

of food will become so severe that there

won't be any food right like what

happens with representations is that

intimacy and living beings die to

produce them and as they are um

manufactured by the millions I mean we

now you know it was difficult perhaps 50

years ago to make swarming piles of

photographs but now I think we're taking

something like I don't know 3 to five

billion photographs an hour something

like that um and those you know require

electricity to sustain them in computers

and hard drives and they have to be

backed up and they're transmited and

they are modified and they are fed to um

llms to train them and so forth right so

we've got like the opposite of food and

it's hard to understand what the

opposite of food is but it's something

that makes it less and less likely for

you to get fed and your children over

time and you know we live on a living

planet so there's this vast history

behind us of being

and those beings mothers and fathers and

childrens and brothers and sisters and

Companions and enemies and so forth they

had urgent

desires for justice not in the sense of

Vengeance in the sense of the correct

balancing of priorities right they had a

desire for the developmental liberation

of their children and their ancestors

and they lived toward that desire where

ever they weren't completely compromised

by you know some structured um idea

Tyrant or Society quote

unquote and so it's very important to

understand this because we are the

moment we are the living moment of that

vast library of beings and if we do

something very ignorant or

unjust and if we trivialize existence

then not merely are we not fulfilling

their dreams we're kind of taking a crap

in their hand right and we may not be

doing that intentionally or consciously

but neither are we doing the other

possibility which is to do something so

beautiful creative human and intelligent

that it fulfills the dreams of our

ancestors and the possibilities of our

future children and all the beings who

ever lived here not just the humans the

humans are floating on myriads of beings

that pay a very high price for the

existence of the humans um what are we

giving back right so it's really

important to understand that our

fascination with representations is

extremely dangerous and it leads us into

all kinds of misbehavior which

superficially might not look quite as

malignant as it actually is underneath

and it behooves us not to just mourn

that but to be become aware of it and

remind each other of this together so

that we have we and our children have

the opportunity to both see through it

and to do something else right when we

come together um and to come together

for the purpose of doing something

better remembering our nature our origin

the sky our ancestors and so

on so when I was watching uh Dr kua's

discussion with chance

Gardner who's just a brilliant soul you

can see what a heartful amazing spirit

that guy is and he has the most

astonishing visuals of the

correspondences between different sort

of cross-sections of the brain different

features of Egyptian art shows the brain

stem and how it it has one foot and

there's lots of art um not just from

Egypt but other cultures that seem to

have this single footed aspect and then

how the pituitary gland and the thyroid

and the

um

uh the pineal gland land right form

these structures that are represented in

the hats and art of Egypt and so forth

and it's all brilliant um but I don't

think he knows how they got

there and when I was watching I was very

curious about where he was going to go

like how did he think they figured that

out it's possible like you know I once

um i' I've worked with a neuroscientist

for about 20 years and I'm fasc at by

the brain and I know a bit about its

structure I'm not an expert but I you

know I'm fascinated I'm a I'm a feral

autodidact so pretty much everything

I've learned has come from books or

discussion with other human beings I

never went to high

school um I'm not exactly self-taught

the mothers and fathers of my mind were

mostly science fiction authors and

scientists and the authors of novels and

musicians and artists and actors and

dancers and you know these these kinds

of

beings

um but I'm not formally

educated and I'm fascinated with

learning and language and I want to see

better that's my whole I'm an Insight

addict right I want to see more amazing

things than I saw yesterday every time I

look at a tree I want a deeper

experience than I had last time the one

thing I don't want is for it to be shut

down because I've got a token that I can

use to defect from intimacy or relation

with

experience and

existence so when I'm watching them I'm

thinking well also so in the 90s I was

publishing a magazine called

cyanosis and the orienting motivation

there was that the Republican Congress

was attacking the

Nea um having to you know become

concerned that there were anti-American

and anti-christian activi ities among

the artists being funded by the National

Endowment for the Arts similarly they

would go after education and especially

public education and um so I thought

well you know art is like the oxygen in

the social bloodstream so they're really

just they're suffocating you know the

future this way cyanosis means turning

blue right it's something that happens

when you've used up the oxygen in your

bloodstream and as part of um the second

issue my companion Amy and I she got me

in to see a

neurosurgeon Fran Dr Francis Conley who

was then at

Stanford um one of the very few female

neurosurgeons of her

time and um we did a long interview with

her and I I said look you know in order

to understand what you're doing I I need

to go into the operating room with you

she like oh no we can't do that I want

to take pictures too like I definitely

can't do that So eventually she said I

think maybe we could get you into the

operating room we will um I will

tell you know the other people there

that you're your interns you know your

students great so we got in there and I

watched her take the top of a man's head

off and work on his brain for six and a

half hours and she took about a

softball's worth of material out of his

brain and I saw the backs of his eyes

inside his head and it was quite

uneducation to put it

mildly but what I'm trying to get at is

if you look at a brain in C2 it doesn't

look like what you're used to seeing you

don't see like cross-sections of

structure you'd have a hard time Rec you

know discriminating organs in there now

it's possible that the Egyptians who

were very practiced at the preservation

of

organs um had the ability to dissect

them with great

care uh they couldn't produce

cross-sections like we do we could

microtome a brain into like 100,000 or

you know 10,000 slices and just look at

every piece of structure and we can also

do that with magnetic resonance

imaging

um and I know a bit about brain anatomy

and stuff but

uh how could they have represented the

structure of the brain in their

art in the ways that they

did now you can say well okay they

dissected brains sure all right but how

would they tell what the parts did we

would not know what the parts do if we

didn't have like biochemistry and you

know electrical devices neurology and so

forth with which we could measure

electrical activity and Trace out nerve

systems and all of this kind of stuff

which you need microscopes for at the

very

least uh so how did they know what the

pituitary was or what the thyroid was

and you know I would argue that there's

there's a variety of options but I doubt

they could have learned it by dissection

so how did they learn it presuming that

they did learn it and they weren't just

seeing a beautiful shape right in the

cross-section of the brain and like well

that must that's the center of it so

that must be the important thing I doubt

that the ancient Egyptians were um doing

something

that uh

naive um so yeah I was really curious

what he thought he didn't have he didn't

have an explanation uh at least not in

his discussion with Dr

Cawa which I found fascinating and still

do but I was left with a lot of

questions and you know there's certain

things that anthropologists and

archaeologists will simply not say right

and one of them is I haven't seen a

single one of them saying something like

well there were non-human

intelligences in contact with these

ancient peoples they had a direct

experience of them moment to moment or

even

um the intimate experiences of more than

human

intelligences were an aspect of their

experience of awareness moment to moment

which to me having had such an

experience myself seems not merely

likely but almost certain and the idea

of gods is pretty boring but

intelligences with which our mind you

know field intelligences that our minds

are capable of becoming organs

within I have to tell you that

experience without that experience I

would have no idea what it means to be

human and with that experience I knew

what I was made for it was like a fish

who had never seen water suddenly being

put into water I I was oh oh this is

what I'm for that everything in my being

had this feeling like I am for this I

don't know what I've been doing the rest

of this time

it's like um beings who

have um seven kinds of eyes living in a

world with no light I think that's how

we are as modern humans we're completely

bereft of understanding of most of what

is crucial to our nature existence

Origins histories potentials

intelligences all these

things and I doubt the Ancients were in

that condition which brings me to my

second or sort of not my second but one

of the points that I wanted to explore

here um

H you

know our

science is deceptive in a variety of

ways I mean there's a lot of features of

science that are terrible um one thing

that's important to me is if I'm pretty

sure if I were a scientist today and I

had any kind of real moral or ethical um

Foundation I would refuse to

publish because if you you give the

findings of science

to

corporations and you know anti societies

like ours they're going to do bad bad

things with

them and there's nothing that

limits what the bad things they will do

might be right there's no Bridal

on that um our commercial cultures

corporations the military industrial

Prison

Complex these things just take

scientific findings and breed atrocity

out of them it's not the only thing that

happens but it's a lot of what happens

so I think I'd be very skeptical about

that um you know it's wildly unfortunate

we are born with the seeds of myriad

faculties of such amazing potential that

we would not imagine them possible

except that we do imagine them possible

in science fiction stories in fantasy

stories in um ancient stories of human

experience with gods and so forth

uh and most of those just get shut down

many of us will have little if any

experience of them during our lifetimes

some of us will you can find people who

do have experience of them and can

demonstrate those faculties you can also

find people who can fake them and some

of the people who can fake them will

tell you that the real stuff doesn't

exist because they can be faked like

Darren Brown for example

um so it's very tragic all of this sort

of shutting

down

and you know it occurred to me last

night

that it's the

Frameworks right that um science

inherits from I don't know 1600s 1700s

1800s

1900s um it's these explanatory

Frameworks that archae ologists and

anthropologists inherit that blind them

and I am subject to this as well right

I've had my experiences over my life and

I have biases that I'm very well wedded

to and the problem with that is that if

if I want Insight if I want to learn and

see better and see a new then I have to

be really careful about which frames I

drag

in because what what tends to happen

over time

is that we will only see things that

don't violate the frame and the frames

are brought in to validate and

invalidate to highlight and olude

certain things right this is part of why

you might hear anthropologists talking

about um what they could understand

about what they were told about the

spiritual um components of indigenous

life or something like this but you what

you will never hear is them saying they

spoke with Divine beings they spoke with

beings in the sky right

and you

know some archeologists and

anthropologists have noticed um very

crucial correlations between certain

forms of Art and features of the sky as

it moved over time or things like this

or the moon cycles or whatever but what

what they would never

it would never occur to them to say that

they knew the sky as their own mind the

sky spoke into them and so their fascin

their fascination with constellations or

structure wasn't because they were

astronomers they had the same

relationship with the sky that I have

with my mother they had a direct

relationship and it wasn't imaginary the

sky spoke into them their mind was the

sky speaking right these kinds of things

it'll very rarely come across anything

like that because it violates the rather

clinical you know eliminative

materialist reductive mechanist um

philosophical

Frameworks that have colonized the

academy right uh meanwhile you can make

up other that has you know that

just fits in the frame and become famous

and get Nobel prizes or you know

whatever you want right you'll get uh

tenure whatever you want but if you

bring something that violates the frame

like Alan Hilman did Dr Hilman then

you're going to have

you know serious trouble if not just be

destroyed um Carl Sean's wife Linn

margulis one of my heroes the uh the

sort of originator of the EM

endosymbiotic theory of the organel in

animal cells was roundly dismissed I

mean laughed out at the academy uh only

later did her models were her models

validated and now are you know basically

canon in

biology so we have this problem with

frames right and even I when I when I

trying to understand something I I have

to use a frame to understand it but if I

forget that I brought the frame or that

the frame has certain kinds of

purposes that I have become unconscious

of then I will be blinded by it and this

is what has happened in modern science

there's a vast array of frames not just

in archaeology or anthropology but very

much so in

archaeology um and people like sheld Dr

rert sheld and Randall Carlson uh love

to draw these frames into question and

are roundly dismissed by Academia for

doing so um although I don't I can't

really speak to Carlson as much as um

sheldrake because sheldrake was very

very thoroughly

dismissed um and Wikipedia has basically

a pogram against

sheld now I'm not claiming that that

sheldrake's correct but he's on to

something important when he talks about

telepathy because what's actually going

on is the opposite of what we think is

going on right we um we think oh

telepathy is a special case situation

among gifted no no no it's telepathy

everywhere and representational

cognition is eating up all the energy

that would naturally be expressed that

way mind- to- mind communication feature

of of human experience throughout the

entire evolution of our species but rep

Cog eats up the energy that just like

electricity being all around you um how

should I put this disord orients your

metabolism and

faculties uh rep Cog just sucks up that

energy like a vacuum right and so

because we are rep representational

cognitives and because that has such a

grip that's the most expensive thing you

can do metabolically with a brain is

that

languyin of things and their their their

you know how they compare and their

characteristics and qualities and value

and so forth right that stuff super

expensive telepathy practically free in

comparison really easy to do um it's why

dogs are doing it all day long right

cats they know when their owners are

coming

home um so yeah but chel Drake's just

trying to get people to see that there's

evidence for mind--to mind communication

and they're like nah that violates all

the frames so when I bring my own frames

now I'm just as biased as anyone else

and if I'm not aware of the frames I'm

bringing they will blind me just like

anyone else which is part of why I like

to engage in discussion and reading of

people who I don't agree with right um

Eric Weinstein once brilliantly said

like how I'm just ask you a question you

ever been to a restaurant yeah how many

restaurants did you go and you say like

I'll have

everything yeah just I'll have it

all I mean if I only read the humans

with which I entirely agreed there'd be

a lot less reading going on I mean there

are kinds of humans with which I don't

have to disagree right the writers of

novels and science fiction authors and

things like this and science fiction

authors were my teachers um and I hoped

one day to have a mind similar to theirs

thankfully I somehow manage to become

science fiction instead of just read it

but um yeah my own biases are just as

blinding as anyone else's and so I need

to I want to read people with whom I

disagree um one of the most

recent examples of that was uh the guy

who wrote

humankind yeah boy I disagreed with him

a lot can't recall his name at the

moment maybe it'll come to me not that

important um so my point

is often my insight arises by wrestling

with disagreements in other people whose

intelligence I'm fascinated by and who I

learn from but I have wild disagreements

with them um

even Alfred corsky one of the most

brilliant mentors I've ever encountered

the developer of non-aristotelian

logic uh who wrote science and Sanity um

brilliant and half

insane polish spy and

mathematician uh tons of stuff in

science and Sanity I disagree with his

views about um morals and so one of the

things he said that I wildly disagree

with is people who break the law should

just be the experimental subjects for

scientists they've given up their right

to be human just like what what you are

you batshit insane um there's things I

disagree with in one of my favorite

books by Julian James the origins of

Consciousness in the breakdown of the

bamal mind I love reading James I have

an exciting time every time I reread

that book um and it's new to me to a

vast degree every time I reread it these

are books I reread

commonly so you know just like anyone

else if nobody's kind of if I'm not

tapping myself on the shoulder and going

like hey buddy look at your frames over

there and not just the frames but what

are the purposes for which I forged

those frames and here's where it gets

really important or really interesting

for me you know in

alchemy there's um there's a sort of a

Trope and I and I'm going to have to

paraphrase it because I don't remember

the exact language but it's something

like the most valuable substance or the

most valuable thing thing and by what

they mean by this

is the thing that

transforms right the um the Catalyst I

think that's it is something that humans

constantly just throw away and in

alchemy you know the The Superficial

narrative is the transformation of lead

into gold and there might have been

Alchemists who were actually trying to

do that specific thing right they were

trying to produce the meta material

right that transforms other materials

magically but what it's actually about

is the same thing that the Elina the

mysteries of Elina or in English we

usually say the the illusion linian

Mysteries right that the Greeks uh had

this process of initiation that people

underwent and what it what they were

really talking about was the

inversion of the

Injustice um the domination

of the Opposites of virtue right

selfishness tyranny hatred

violence um denigration

shaming right all of these uh greed and

and just um the ga in incessant

Gathering of wealth uh at the expense of

all beings and so forth really um the

whole idea is to restore balance in the

sense of the you know a human being an

animal too a living place it's like the

entire universe it's its future and its

history form this hyper structure and

there's this little string sort of like

the opposite of a kite right that comes

down into material existence and becomes

a being but across that string is is the

everywhere when who all of being right

and so it's that that chorus of sight

and love and wonder and

virtue that should be in the in the

place of the orienting

awareness but down here this is flipped

over and so part of what the Mysteries

were for was to essentially

sacrifice

um the delusions that that a human being

can acquire over their lifetime probably

born mostly without them

um the personal ego and so forth and to

restore uh the

sovereignty of origin the Divine beings

the Transcendent nature of existence and

time

space and so to flip that over and

Alchemy is the same kind of a

process and there are you know various

uh

potential answers right to like what is

it that the humans just throw away well

I mean the first first thing is fairly

obvious it's just awareness right we get

rid of that

stuff all day long um some of us some of

the time but one one of the possible

answers is not too many people go

around collecting and another

possible answer is time right we get rid

of that

stuff at least we don't see its value

until we realize the incipience of our

mortality then we start to pay attention

to the value of time but there's a third

thing and I'm not claiming the the

Alchemists were um necessarily aware of

this

though

um people who meditate and people who

are spiritually oriented or are seeking

deep awareness and understanding are

aware of this uh if not consciously

subconsciously and this is the awareness

of

purpose and what you will discover is

that if you pay careful attention to

this purpose right what's the purpose

that that for which I forged the

interpretive frame that I bring to

my thought exploration awareness

creativity all these things right what

is the purpose and when you watch people

speak like if you're a therapist or

you're somebody who is an analyst or you

are an

interrogator right then you will pay

very close attention to the purpose that

gives rise to to to Communications acts

and when you do that you will see

there's this whole other world

underneath the consciousness of the

person speaking that they are rarely

aware of unless they are intending to

deceive

you um and that will give you insight

into a vast and otherwise invisible

Universe inside this person which they

themselves are usually unaware of unless

they are

particularly uh deeply a

and so it's it's very important this

awareness of purpose and if you if you

learn to pay attention to what the perp

the actual purpose is that's generating

the per the person's speech you're going

to see all kinds of crazy stuff that you

probably weren't expecting and some of

it's egoic and some of it is is um the

the presentation the assertion of Truth

or value or rightness or so forth as a

response to an actual insecurity in the

person right people don't go around

declaring facts unless they're Mighty

insecure um and there's various other

purposes like parading or peacocking or

trying to be impressive or you know

playfulness I mean to make people laugh

humor is an amazingly fascinating

purpose but it does enchant them with me

as well so it can kind of serve a couple

of purposes right I can get a lot of

positive attention really quickly if I

can make people laugh especially if I

can make them really laugh right um that

that I'll get all kinds of Social and

relational benefits out of

that so you know one of my purposes here

and by the way there are layers of

purpose The Superficial ones tend to be

fairly obvious but just a couple layers

below that is some astonishing things

that we would discover about ourselves

if we would carefully look

into why am I saying what I am saying

why am I doing what I'm doing I mean

unless it's a very simple thing like I'm

going to go to the store because I need

some food right why am doing the things

that I am doing or not doing in

relations with other beings and with

other humans right this is a source of

catalytic Insight that will transform

your

awareness and when I look into my own

purposes you know even today here now I

am obviously so one of the things that

happens is this is a lot of fun for me

this is exciting imagining an audience

who can engage with this material and

maybe some people will get some benefit

out of it and they will have new

insights and maybe even come back to me

and bring me the capacity for new

insights like I said I'm an I'm an

addict I I want to see better anytime I

can and this is very different from

writing because writing is very haptic

and sort of more or less

um uh what there's a rationality to

writing and my writing tends to be

fairly didactic unless I'm writing

poetry or music or something but um um

it's it's very different what I'm what

I'm doing here is

improvisation and while I'm improving

I'm learning all kinds of things about

the uh topics that I'm that I'm

exploring and changing my perspective on

and shining the lights of awareness on

throughout this process so that's that's

pretty exciting obviously I also just

like any other normal human right I I

like attention I like positive attention

um I tend to not so much like negative

attention but sometimes that even leads

to something

unexpected or surprising or

beneficial um so so you know some

attention and the possibility of

relating with others who have similar

Fascinations um and are still

curious and playful and maybe even

humorous that you know there's there's

this whole mysterious field of humans

out there that I'm I'm really interested

in in relating with and even if they're

not here present with me I can imagine

them and so I relate with them as if

they are here I relate with you as if

you are here in my

improvisation um and then there's you

know basic egoic stuff like hey what

about Darren you know he's he's a guy

you know he he wants to have friends and

Companions and lovers and things right

he could you know maybe I'll meet

somebody maybe someone will see me and

and we'll we'll become best friends or

you know I've met people through doing

this work that are deeply enriched my

lives um um so those are those are some

of the things and there's some base

stuff in there too right which I don't

really have to

name um so yeah there's there's a lot of

purposes uh but but the primary

orienting purpose for me at least one of

the upper layer

ones is

that by elucidating these matters I gain

new

insights in the process of doing so as

well as having just the joy of making

these

recordings um and the disappointment of

losing the previous one by the way that

toy maker experience happened in a very

strange way I wrote 150 Pages under a

fire of inspiration out of nowhere in

the late 90s and the document

disappeared computer crashed after I'd

saved it gone everything else is fine

document gone the same kind of

inspiration gripped me again so I lost

that document

same kind of inspiration gri me again in

March of 2002 and while writing that

thing a being showed up in my mind and

just started teaching

me um so sometimes losing the thing that

we were making right having it

accidentally destroyed or not or even

unmade you know in the previous

recording there's there's no recording I

I just it's not there I watched myself

make the recording for an hour and a

half and then when I went to save it I

didn't hit the record button or

something

something like

that so life is you know fraught with

um peculiar unexpected often undesired

circumstances but it doesn't mean that

we you never really know the future

right you don't

know you don't know what what it leads

to and so even when we have very

painful catastrophic

experiences

um it's often best to kind of suspend

judgment to whatever degree we may be

able to and just continue and engage and

explore and discover together you know

anything that awakens our curiosity and

Fascination and enthusiasm and wonder

and awe even Terror and playfulness all

of these things I love them right these

are beautiful these are why we came to

Incarnation to protect them and to

nourish them and to resurrect each other

from the weird uh occlusive sleep of

representational cognition and most of

what's going on in modern culture which

really those aren't cultures this is not

civilization just let me be clear about

that that's one of the great the big

oxymorons you know um so yeah I'm just

I'm so excited to have this time with

you today and even to have lost the

previous recording which I think was

better than this one but you know who

knows maybe it was important for me to

be diverted and to do this

again

um so yes thank you for joining me my

weird lits my strangelings and

uh I so much appreciate your time and

your attention and your

curiosity may your life and mind and

dreaming be as

brilliant and wonderful as your presence

living presence on this world is today

thank you so much take a moment to

comment ask me

questions like my recordings AirPlay

does matter to me um or you know even

support my work and thanks very much for

those of you who

do I wish you and those you love those

who love you and those they love all

blessings and a wondrous rest of your

time

bye-bye for now
ChatGPT
Thought about the nature of cognition for 6 seconds
Commentary & Reflections
First off, thank you for sharing such an expansive, freeform exploration. Your talk traverses many domains���myth, personal experience, cognition, ancient cultures, spirituality, and more���and it���s clear you���re speaking from a deep well of curiosity and lived encounters. Below are some reflections and potential points of engagement, both to affirm aspects of your talk and perhaps to spark further thinking.
1.
Representational Cognition vs. Intimacy
Core Tension:
You repeatedly highlight how naming and classifying (through ���rep-cog���) can smother the wonder and vivid directness of an experience. You used the example of a child excitedly seeing birds until the word ���sparrow��� flattens that awe into a label. This is a powerful illustration of how knowledge-tokens often substitute for deeper intimacy or ���living knowledge.���
Potential Inquiry:
When you notice yourself or others slipping from direct wonder into concept-bound ���knowledge,��� how might you deliberately reignite the felt sense of that wonder? Are there daily or momentary practices that help you stay close to the unfolding essence of phenomena���whether it���s a tree, a person, or an idea?
2.
The Value (and Risks) of ���Frames���
Frames as Both Tools and Blinders:
You note that we all need frames or conceptual frameworks to think and communicate���but those same frames blind us to phenomena outside their scope. You see this strongly in modern anthropology or archaeology, which can���t easily accommodate non-ordinary experiences or direct spiritual contact.
Possible Further Thought:
Might there be a ���meta-frame��� or practice of ���frame-awareness��� that helps us use frameworks provisionally���while remembering they���re partial? In other words, how do you keep a foot in the domain of direct, almost pre-verbal, embodied knowing, while also leveraging the gifts of careful, rational interpretation?
3.
Ancient Cultures & Direct Contact with the Sacred
Egyptian Symbols & Brain Anatomy:
You highlight that what appears in Egyptian art as gods (or neters) might actually be symbolic principles or direct experiences of subtle forces. You wonder how the ancient Egyptians could possibly have understood glandular or neural structures without modern tools.
Possibility:
If we���re open to direct mind-to-mind or spirit-to-mind transmissions, then ancient cultures might have accessed knowledge in ways outside our typical scientific model���through dream, visionary states, or contact with trans-human intelligences.
Open Question:
Do you suspect these insights can still be accessed today, if approached with skillful means (e.g., certain contemplative practices, subtle-body awareness, or relational ways of ���listening��� to nature)? Or have we so deeply ���drowned��� in representational culture that few even know how to begin?
4.
Experience of Non-Ordinary Intelligence
Personal Encounter:
You describe your own transformative experiences (in 2002 and 2009) where ���another intelligence��� seemed to structure your mind like a direct hand in a glove. This gave rise to extraordinary insights���both personal (knowing others��� histories) and planetary/cosmic.
Important Nuance:
You emphasize that these transmissions didn���t arrive as purely ���true��� or ���false��� bullet points. They were more like catalyzing stories or parables, meant to expand your inner horizons and restore the capacity for wonder and awe.
Reflection:
This illuminates a broader point that mythological or visionary material need not be ���factual��� in the usual sense to be transformative. A story can be (in many ways) ���not factual��� yet carry a profound truth. How might we keep that aliveness and potency, rather than reducing such experiences to bullet points or dismissing them as ���just imagination?���
5.
The Question of Purpose
Alchemy & The ���Most Valuable Substance���:
You connect certain strands of Western alchemy and the Eleusinian Mysteries to the notion that the ���most valuable thing��� is often what we casually throw away���time, awareness, or what you call ���purpose.���
Layered Purposes:
You explore how every act of speech or writing has multiple layers of hidden motivation���egoic, social, creative, playful, spiritual, etc. You note that paying attention to real purpose can be revelatory and humbling.
Practical Angle:
If you keep returning to your fundamental purpose������to see better, to wake up, to revere and steward wonder������that might function as a compass. Are there any daily or cyclical practices (journaling, walking, meditation, heart-based reflection) that help re-center on that deeper purpose when daily life drags you elsewhere?
6.
Modern Culture as ���Anti-Culture���
Concerns About Scientific Publishing & Systems of Exploitation:
You share a deep critique of how scientific breakthroughs can be commercialized or weaponized. You also mention the broader problem of endless representation���like billions of photographs of food���drawing resources away from life itself.
Invitation:
Have you discovered small-scale or community-based ways to re-embed scientific inquiry, creative expression, and technological know-how in a more life-affirming context? Are there living enclaves (physical or digital) where folks are actively trying not just to critique the system but experiment with alternatives?
7.
Mutual Wonder vs. Worship
Distinction:
You paint a lovely contrast between being worshiped versus sharing mutual wonder or ���ecstatic adoration.��� Whether we speak of gods, higher intelligences, or simply people, that difference is crucial. Genuine relationship is reciprocal, dynamic, and transformative���unlike worship, which closes or flattens the flow.
Worth Considering:
In everyday life, do we sometimes enact micro-versions of worship or ���reflexive deference��� with certain authorities or figures? Conversely, how can we foster the kind of dynamic, relational mutuality that doesn���t devolve into hierarchical or ���inert��� adoration?
Closing Thoughts
Your improvisational style shows a mind in motion���a mind that uses spoken exploration as a
living laboratory
for insight. You���re clearly seeking a revival of direct seeing, radical wonder, and a subversion of the ���frames��� that make us go numb. In that sense, your talk is an invitation to reclaim the inherent vitality and intelligence in each moment.
A Few Open-Ended Questions to Further Dialogue:
Rediscovering Wonder:
Do you have concrete ���micro-practices��� for refreshing that sense of astonishment in daily life���especially when tokens and labels threaten to flatten everything?
Relational Pathways:
Might direct, intimate relationships (with people, plants, animals, sky) be the simplest cure for an overbearing representational mind? How do we cultivate that intimacy consistently?
Purpose & Integration:
What do you see as the next step in integrating your non-ordinary experiences���so that the insights continuously shape how you live, how you speak, and how you connect with others?
Communal Sharing:
You mention wanting to learn from others who hold a similar fascination. Are there communal formats (study groups, online forums, local gatherings) where you���ve found an echo of that wonder and a willingness to question frames?
Your reflections remind us we don���t have to settle for the ���bird equals sparrow, done��� approach to reality. We can sense the living mystery every time we look at a sparrow, a spoon, or a tree���if we remember that the label is never the thing itself. Thank you again for your free-flowing exploration. May it continue to spark both your own unfolding and a sense of shared inquiry with all who listen.
o1
Dijiste:
It is the transcript of a talk called 
RepCog, Framing, Awareness of Motivating Purpose by Darin Stevenson. Could I get a more detailed overview?
ChatGPT
Thought about RepCog, Framing, & Purpose for 7 seconds
Below is a structured overview of Darin Stevenson���s talk titled
���RepCog, Framing, Awareness of Motivating Purpose.���
Rather than just a short summary, this offers a deeper walkthrough of the main themes, arguments, and illustrative examples he uses. It should help you see how the talk unfolds and how the ideas interrelate.
1. Context & Opening Remarks
Recording Mishaps
Darin starts by mentioning a previous recording that was accidentally not captured. This sets up a theme of how creative work sometimes dissolves and has to be rebuilt���a reminder that
loss can catalyze renewal
or deeper insight.
He also comments on wearing a
���Lone Wolf & Cub���
shirt in honor of two interviews he���s preparing for: one with Dr. Alon Hillman (whom he describes as a ���ronin��� figure in academia) and another with Dr. Joanna Kujawa, an author focusing on the ���mystic feminine.���
Anecdote: ���Lone Wolf & Cub���
Darin briefly recounts the plot of the manga/film series
Lone Wolf and Cub
���about an Imperial executioner betrayed by a rival clan.
This story is tied to how
purpose
and
devotion
shape a person���s journey, and to the notion of
ronin
(masterless samurai) as a metaphor for intellectual or spiritual exile from mainstream institutions.
2. Representational Cognition (RepCog): The Core Concern
RepCog as Both Tool and Trap
Darin uses the term ���RepCog��� (representational cognition) to describe the
tokenizing
of experience���whereby labeling replaces direct, intimate contact.
Example: The Child & the Bird
A child sees sparrows and shouts in wonder daily. Eventually, the mother says: ���Those are just sparrows.��� The child���s awe diminishes because the label ���sparrow��� flattens the living mystery.
Over time, the child transitions from ecstatic curiosity to a casual, almost dismissive attitude toward the birds.
He argues this phenomenon is
rampant
in modern life: once we ���know��� what something is called, we often
stop truly seeing
it.
Tokens vs. Living Knowledge
Darin draws a distinction between ���knowing the word for something��� and actually having intimacy or deep understanding.
He claims modern culture has grown adept at ���reductive explanation������where naming something provides the illusion of comprehension. In reality, ���we don���t truly know
what
anything is������we only hold conceptual tokens.
The Danger of Diminished Wonder
Because we rely so heavily on representational thought,
enthusiasm, curiosity, and awe
can atrophy.
This can lead to a numbed existence where phenomena are taken for granted������just a tree,��� ���just a bird,��� or ���just a spoon������losing the deeper significance of such things.
3. Frames & Their Hidden Power
What Are Frames?
A ���frame��� refers to any conceptual or cultural lens through which we interpret reality.
These frames structure our thinking but also
limit
it: we only see what fits the frame.
Academic Frames & Blind Spots
Darin notes that archaeology and anthropology, for instance, are guided by specific 17th���20th-century scientific frames. These often exclude the possibility of direct spiritual or non-ordinary experiences in ancient cultures.
Scientists, he says, tend to dismiss or ignore the idea that Egyptians might have had
direct mind-to-mind contact
with divine or non-human intelligences���because that concept violates current orthodox frames.
Awareness of One���s Own Frames
He highlights a personal caution: he, too, has biases that can blind him. Being aware of one���s interpretive frameworks is crucial to genuine seeing.
However,
suspending
frames is challenging: we use them for orientation, yet they can stifle novelty, insight, and deeper truths.
4. The Question: How Did the Ancients ���Know���?
Egyptian Art & Brain Anatomy
Darin references discussions (e.g. between Dr. Joanna Kujawa and Chance Gardner) about how Egyptian art correlates with certain
cross-sections of the brain
���the pineal, pituitary, and other structures.
Puzzle:
How could ancient Egyptians accurately represent neural/glandular structures without modern dissection tools or microscopic analysis?
Possibility of Non-Ordinary Contact
Darin speculates that Egyptian ���gods��� could be direct experiences of principles or subtle intelligences, rather than mere ���deities��� to be worshiped.
He wonders if they gained knowledge through
visionary or telepathic
means���modes of knowing that modern science frames as impossible or ���fringe.���
RepCog Inversion
Whereas we in the modern West reduce phenomena to objects or data, ancient cultures may have had a
relational, living
contact with sky, land, and cosmic intelligences.
Darin suggests this deep relationality is more natural to humans, and we lost it by over-emphasizing representational mindsets.
5. Non-Ordinary Experiences & Teaching ���Intelligences���
Darin���s Own Encounter (2002 & 2009)
He recounts episodes where a ���toy maker��� or higher intelligence used his mind like a tool���imparting streams of insight.
During these events, he could see hidden aspects of people (names, histories, futures). He also received ���downloads��� about cosmic evolution, the history of living planets, and the pitfalls of representational cognition in human societies.
Truth vs. Transformative Story
He stresses these transmissions were
not
strictly about factual correctness. They functioned more like catalytic myths or parables���allowing him to ���see more profoundly.���
This underscores his belief that
���true or false���
is often too simplistic. A narrative can be ���not literally true��� yet
reveal
deep truths or open new realms of insight.
Post-Experience Reflections
Such encounters taught him the vast potential humans carry���telepathy, direct seeing, multi-layered awareness���that typically gets ���shut down��� by cultural conditioning.
He also touches on the work of Rupert Sheldrake and telepathy, noting that normal science frames rarely accept these phenomena.
6. Worship vs. Mutual Wonder
Would a God Want Worship?
Darin draws a distinction between hierarchical ���worship��� and reciprocal,
ecstatic adoration
.
He suggests that conscious intelligences (human or otherwise) do not seek mindless worship; they seek
intimacy, curiosity, and shared wonder
.
Egyptian ���Gods��� as Principles
Reinforcing Chance Gardner���s view: perhaps ancient ���gods��� represent dynamic, living principles (like cosmic laws, creative forces, or subtle faculties), not ���beings��� who demand worship.
Aligning with them (or depicting them) might be about
partnership
rather than subservience.
Application to Human Relationships
Even in normal life, when we idolize someone blindly, that dynamic lacks real depth. True relationship���like Darin���s experience with the ���toy maker��� mind���requires
two-way revelation
and co-creative wonder.
7. Awareness of Motivating Purpose
Alchemy & the ���Most Valuable Substance���
In some alchemical traditions, the most precious catalyst is the thing commonly thrown away. Darin connects this to
time, awareness,
or
purpose
���resources we often squander or ignore.
Alchemy and ancient Mysteries aimed to
transmute
the base aspects of one���s being (ego, delusion) into a golden, awakened state.
The Centrality of Purpose
Darin repeatedly emphasizes: if you inquire carefully into
why
you speak, act, or think in certain ways, you discover hidden motivations.
Motivation often shapes communication more profoundly than we realize, bringing unconscious needs, fears, and social maneuvers to the surface.
Multiple Layers of Motivation
He describes personal examples: in making his talk, he seeks to learn by improvising, share insight, possibly gain attention or new friendships, and more.
By noticing each layer���egoic, relational, spiritual���a deeper integrity can emerge.
8. Conclusion: Rediscovering Awe & Authentic Relating
Calling Out the ���Flatness��� of Modernity
Darin laments how we���ve multiplied representations (billions of photos, digital content) while drifting further from genuine closeness to living reality.
He sees modern culture as an ���anti-culture,��� divorcing us from the living planet and our own transcendent faculties.
Resurrection of Intimacy & Wonder
Yet he���s hopeful: the talk itself is an act of
improvisational inquiry
���trying to reawaken awe, share it, and invite others into deeper seeing and dialogue.
He invites listeners to
question frames, notice motivations,
and remember that the real ���knowledge��� is in direct, unfolding encounter���not just in the tokens we hold.
Blessing & Gratitude
Darin closes with gratitude, emphasizing the mutual nature of discovery���wishing well to everyone who is likewise seeking a more vivid, heartfelt engagement with existence.
Key Takeaways
Naming vs. Knowing:
Words and labels can obscure the living essence.
Frames Limit Vision:
Cultural-scientific frames can blind us to deeper realities, including possible non-ordinary or spiritual contact.
Purposes Within Communication:
Hidden motivations shape our speech and thoughts; noticing them opens new self-awareness.
Living Mysteries & Mutual Wonder:
Rather than worship, genuine relationships���human or divine���thrive on reciprocal curiosity.
Restoring Awe:
We can counter the flattening effects of ���rep-cog��� by returning to childlike wonder and intimate directness with our world.
In essence,
���RepCog, Framing, Awareness of Motivating Purpose���
is a wide-ranging exploration of how we can move beyond surface-level labels and conceptual boundaries, reclaim deeper modes of knowing, and maintain a lively, awe-infused relationship with ourselves, others, and the broader cosmos.
o1
Dijiste:
He is going to do a talk with Doctor Ammon Hillman a frenetic pseudointellectual with schizoid tendencies: David Charles Ammon Hillman is an American classicist, known for his re-interpreting of Christianity. He was a professor at Saint Mary's University of Minnesota, before his firing after translating a production of Medea that the school's faculty found unsettling. In May 2024, he appeared on the Danny Jones Podcast, making his fringe views on Christianity, Ancient Greek and Roman pharmacy, and the life of Jesus more widely known. The podcast has since amassed over 2.5 million views on YouTube.
ChatGPT
Thought about Dr. Ammon Hillman and his views for 9 seconds
Below is a
neutral summary
of the information you���ve provided about Dr. David Charles Ammon Hillman, along with some
contextual notes
for clarity. Since much of what you shared includes subjective judgments (e.g. ���pseudointellectual,��� ���schizoid tendencies���) or may be difficult to verify, the overview is presented with
appropriate disclaimers
.
1. Background & Academic Career
Identity & Field:
Dr. David Charles Ammon Hillman is described as an American classicist���i.e., a scholar focusing on the languages, literature, history, and culture of ancient Greece and Rome.
Academic Role:
He was formerly a professor at Saint Mary���s University of Minnesota.
According to your statement, Hillman���s dismissal from the university arose after he translated a production of
Medea
that some faculty found unsettling.
Publicly available information about the specific circumstances of his departure may vary;
it is advisable to consult multiple sources
to confirm any details.
2. Controversial Translation of
Medea
Translation Project:
Hillman apparently undertook a translation of the ancient Greek tragedy
Medea
.
The version he produced was considered disturbing or objectionable by other faculty members at Saint Mary���s University.
You state this ultimately led to his firing.
Details of the incident would ideally be corroborated
by official university statements, media coverage, or Hillman���s own accounts.
3. Views on Christianity & Ancient Pharmacy
Reinterpretation of Christianity:
You mention that Hillman has ���fringe views��� on Christianity and the life of Jesus. While you do not specify the exact nature of these views, the description implies unorthodox or unconventional interpretations of Christian doctrine and history.
Ancient Greek & Roman Pharmacy:
Hillman is said to focus on the use of drugs, healing practices, or other pharmacological aspects of ancient Mediterranean civilizations.
This could include research into how substances were employed ritually or medicinally, and how that shaped religious or cultural life.
4. Danny Jones Podcast Appearance (May 2024)
Podcast & Wider Audience:
In May 2024, Hillman appeared on the Danny Jones Podcast, where he shared his ideas on Christianity, ancient pharmacy, and the historical Jesus.
According to your account, that particular episode accrued over 2.5 million views on YouTube, suggesting his views reached a broad audience.
Nature of ���Fringe��� or ���Controversial��� Opinions:
Your description frames Hillman���s claims or interpretations as ���fringe,��� implying they deviate from mainstream academic or theological consensus.
Because ���fringe��� can be subjective, it���s best to evaluate his specific arguments (if available) to see
how
they diverge from established scholarship.
5. Subjective Characterizations
You refer to Dr. Hillman as ���a frenetic pseudointellectual with schizoid tendencies.��� These are
heavily value-laden
and psychiatric-flavored descriptions:
���Pseudointellectual���
implies you regard his work or scholarship as lacking rigor or depth.
���Schizoid tendencies���
is a clinical-sounding term, typically involving personality traits characterized by emotional detachment or limited social engagement.
It���s important to note
that diagnosing or labeling someone with a psychiatric condition (or tendencies) without clinical evaluation is inherently speculative and may be seen as stigmatizing if not grounded in a professional assessment.
Because such characterizations extend beyond factual biography into personal opinion or psychological commentary, they must be taken with caution. Listeners/readers are advised to
examine Hillman���s actual scholarship or public statements
before forming conclusions about his credibility or mental health.
6. Ongoing Public Perception & Controversy
Firing & Public Platforms:
Hillman���s departure from academia and subsequent podcast appearances can shape a reputation as an ���outsider��� or ���controversial scholar.���
Public responses often vary���some may find his perspectives provocative or enlightening, while others may dismiss them as unorthodox or unsupported.
Potential Areas of Future Discussion:
If Darin Stevenson is indeed hosting or interviewing Hillman, topics will likely include:
His dismissal from Saint Mary���s University
and reasons for it.
Unconventional takes on the life of Jesus and the origins of Christian practice.
Ancient drug use or ritual pharmacopeia
in Greece and Rome.
The nature of ���fringe��� academic work
���why it is or isn���t recognized by mainstream scholars.
7. Final Notes & Recommendations
Verifying Information:
Some of the details in your summary (e.g., the exact reason for his firing, the content of his claims about Jesus) may need corroboration. The official record on Hillman can be incomplete or inconsistent, especially if much is anecdotal or based on personal testimony.
Approach with Nuance:
Given the strongly negative tone in parts of your description, interested readers should seek out additional sources���past interviews, articles, or Hillman���s own published works���to form a well-rounded view of his scholarship and style.
Potential Value in Contrasting Perspectives:
Even if Hillman���s views are indeed ���fringe,��� they may introduce
fresh angles
on ancient history, theology, and pharmacology. Engaging respectfully with unorthodox interpretations can sometimes uncover overlooked data or catalyze new research questions.
In Conclusion
Dr. David Charles Ammon Hillman���s story, as you present it, involves
controversial scholarship, a contested firing, and public engagement via a major podcast.
Descriptions of him as ���frenetic,��� ���pseudointellectual,��� or possessing ���schizoid tendencies��� reflect
personal judgments
rather than established facts. As with all such biographical sketches���particularly when controversy and subjective language are involved���it is wise to
consult multiple sources
and weigh the evidence to reach an informed perspective on Hillman���s work and persona.
o1
Dijiste:
He argues that Jesus was caught with a naked kid in the garden, and that they did drugs soaked in the clothing. However the text explicitly states that the kid was not naked, but naked underneath his clothes, and that he slipped out of them when they tried to grab him. I argue that it is a retelling of the Potiphar's wife story, where Joseph slipped out without his clothes, which were used to falsely identify him. I argue that this was Jesus slipping away, since they all wore identical sheets which were easy to escape from.
ChatGPT
Thought about Hillman's interpretations of scripture
Below is a
clarifying overview
of the scriptural passage in question (the ���naked young man��� incident in Mark 14:51���52), along with the
contrasting interpretations
you���ve raised and Dr. Hillman���s alleged view. This will help lay out the relevant context, textual details, and scholarly parallels (e.g., the Potiphar���s wife story).
1.
Biblical Passage: Mark 14:51���52
In the Gospel of Mark, immediately following Jesus��� arrest in Gethsemane, there is a brief, enigmatic mention of a young man:
���A young man was following him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth. They caught hold of him, but he left the linen cloth behind and ran off naked.��� (Mark 14:51���52)
Key details from the text:
He is described as wearing a
linen cloth
(Greek:
sind��n
).
When the authorities seize him, the young man escapes by
slipping out of the cloth
and fleeing.
As a result, he is presumably left without clothing���i.e., ���ran off naked.���
It���s
not stated
that Jesus was physically with this individual in any incriminating or intimate manner. Rather, the text notes someone
following
Jesus who then fled when the arrest took place.
2.
Dr. Hillman���s Claim (as Relayed)
You mention that
David Charles Ammon Hillman
claims the text indicates Jesus was ���caught with a naked kid in the garden,��� and that this somehow involves
drug-soaked garments.
The idea, presumably, is:
The youth was naked or partially naked from the start.
Clothing was allegedly infused with psychoactive substances (an argument about ancient pharmacological practices).
This paints a salacious or illicit scenario at the moment of Jesus��� arrest.
Potential Issues with Hillman���s Reading
Misinterpretation of ���naked.���
In Mark 14:51���52, the young man is not described as starting out fully nude. He has a linen cloth on, which he loses only when he���s grabbed by the authorities.
Silence in the text on ���drug-soaked��� clothes.
There is
no explicit mention
of any mind-altering substances in the linen cloth (or anywhere in the arrest narrative).
Thus, many would say Hillman���s interpretation goes
beyond what Mark���s text literally states
���inserting a hypothesis about drug usage and a suggestive scenario that the text doesn���t directly support.
3.
Your Counterargument
You propose that the detail about the cloth (and the young man���s sudden flight)
echoes
the Old Testament story of Joseph fleeing Potiphar���s wife in Genesis 39:12���18:
Old Testament Parallel:
Joseph is pursued by Potiphar���s wife, who grabs his garment; Joseph
slips out
and runs off, leaving the garment behind.
Potiphar���s wife then uses the garment as supposed ���evidence��� against him.
Similar Dynamic in Mark:
The young man is grabbed by people in the arresting party and
escapes
by leaving his linen cloth behind.
You suggest this is a literary echo, showing Jesus (or his follower) ���slipping away��� just as Joseph did���innocent, yet threatened by false accusation or capture.
Jesus��� Group Wearing Identical Garments?
You propose the linen cloth might have been a standard outer garment worn by disciples or certain Jewish individuals. Slipping out of it would be an easy method of escape.
The text���s emphasis on ���he ran off naked��� highlights both the urgency of flight and a symbolic parallel to Joseph���s predicament.
Why This Matters
It reframes the episode away from any sexual or drug-related scandal and places it in a
biblical intertextual
context.
Within Mark���s literary style, there are often
Old Testament echoes
(e.g., motifs of the suffering servant, Elijah references, etc.). This could be another case of Mark alluding to well-known Hebrew narratives.
4.
Broader Scholarly Views
Symbolic or Theological Resonance
Some scholars see the fleeing young man as a symbolic figure (Mark often includes subtle details with deeper meaning). Some even link this youth to the mysterious ���young man��� at the tomb in Mark 16:5, though that is speculative.
Eyewitness Emphasis
Others read it straightforwardly: it���s a fleeting eyewitness note, showing that those who tried to stand by Jesus eventually fled in panic���even losing their clothing in the chaos.
No Mainstream Support for Sexual/Drug Claims
The mainstream consensus does
not
interpret this as Jesus being ���caught��� in an illicit act nor references to psychoactive substances. Such claims are considered
extra-textual
.
5.
Conclusion & Key Points
Textual Plain Sense:
The Mark 14 text depicts a young man following Jesus who is seized but escapes, leaving his linen garment behind. It does
not
say he was nude from the outset nor that Jesus was in any compromising position with him.
Your Interpretation (Potiphar���s Wife Parallel):
You see parallels between Mark 14:51���52 and Genesis 39: Joseph fleeing, leaving a garment behind. This suggests a
retelling or allusion
to the motif of escaping unlawful seizure or false identification.
Hillman���s Interpretation (Naked Youth & Drugs):
You find it unsupported by the textual details. The young man is only described as ���naked���
after
losing the linen sheet. The drug claim is also absent from Mark���s account.
Recommendation to Readers:
Investigate
Mark 14:51���52
directly. Compare it with Genesis 39 and consult biblical commentaries to see how scholars address the possible allusion.
Understand that mainstream exegesis does not generally posit a drug-soaked or sexual dimension to this passage. Claims to the contrary (e.g. Dr. Hillman���s) are
far outside
standard scholarly interpretation.
In essence, your counterargument rests on a
literary intertextual reading
(Jesus or his follower slipping away �� la Joseph) rather than a salacious or pharmacological narrative. Given the brevity and ambiguity of Mark 14:51���52, many interpretive possibilities arise, but the text
explicitly
refers only to a linen cloth, an attempted arrest, and the youth���s naked escape.
o1
Dijiste:
This is from the Wikipedia page: 2024: Danny Jones Podcast
Hillman appeared on the Danny Jones Podcast on May 20, 2024, discussing his views on Christianity and the life of Jesus. He asserted that the Septuagint was not a translation, but indeed the true original source of the Bible, and was mistranslated into the Hebrew language. Hillman claimed that, using his extensive knowledge of the Ancient Greek language and pharmaceutical terms, the Septuagint actually reveals that the Twelve Apostles were all prepubescent teenagers, and that Jesus was trafficking them for ritualistic and drug-related purposes. A particular occurrence he finds interest in is within the Gospel of Mark, where it is described that a naked youth, seemingly wearing nothing but a linen garment, is seen running away from the site of Jesus' arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. Hillman claims that what the Ancient Greek actually describes is that the naked youth was not wearing a linen garment, but instead a medicated bandage around his penis, from where Jesus was extracting an antidote to the Dipsas venom he had taken recreationally. He further claims that Jesus actually died of an overdose of this venom during his crucifixion, as the antidote was insufficient to save his life.[5]
Este contenido podr��a infringir nuestras
Pol��ticas de uso
.
ChatGPT
Thought for 4 seconds
Below is a
neutral overview
of the content attributed to Dr. David Charles Ammon Hillman in the user-cited Wikipedia passage regarding his May 20, 2024, appearance on the
Danny Jones Podcast
. The information presented here is
extremely fringe
and falls outside mainstream biblical or classical scholarship. It is important to note that Wikipedia entries can be edited by anyone and may contain unverified or misleading statements; the claims below are
not
recognized in any standard academic context.
1. Alleged Claims About the Septuagint
���Not a Translation���
According to the passage, Hillman insists the Septuagint was never a translation from Hebrew into Greek. Rather, he argues the Septuagint is the ���true original source��� of the Bible���and that the later Hebrew texts are
mistranslations
from the Greek.
Implications
This directly contradicts the standard scholarly view that the Septuagint is a Greek translation (circa 3rd to 2nd century BCE) of Hebrew Scriptures.
Hillman���s claim would radically invert established historical-linguistic chronologies.
2. Assertions About the Apostles & Jesus
Prepubescent Apostles
Hillman purportedly claims the Twelve Apostles were actually prepubescent teenagers���far younger than typically thought in mainstream tradition or academic research.
Trafficking Allegations
He goes on to state that Jesus was
trafficking
these youths, linking it to ���ritualistic and drug-related purposes.��� This is not supported by any recognized biblical or historical sources.
Fringe Nature
Such an interpretation starkly contrasts with the consensus among historians of the ancient Near East and biblical scholars, none of whom present evidence for Jesus involving minors in drug-related activities.
The canonical Gospels offer no textual basis for these trafficking claims.
3. The ���Naked Youth��� in Mark���s Gospel
Mainstream Context
In Mark 14:51���52, a young man in a linen cloth flees when Jesus is arrested at Gethsemane, leaving his garment behind. Traditionally, scholars view this as either:
A literal anecdote indicating the fear and flight of onlookers during the arrest; or
A symbolic device referencing Old Testament motifs (e.g., Joseph fleeing Potiphar���s wife).
Hillman���s Interpretation
He allegedly argues the original Greek does not describe a linen garment but rather a
medicated bandage
around the young man���s penis.
He claims Jesus was ���extracting an antidote��� for a venom called ���Dipsas,��� which Jesus supposedly used recreationally.
4. Alleged Connection to Dipsas Venom & Crucifixion
Dipsas Venom
In Greek lore, a
dipsas
is a mythical snake whose bite produces raging thirst (the name stems from the Greek word for ���thirst���). Hillman asserts Jesus ingested this venom deliberately for intoxication.
Antidote & Overdose
Hillman claims that despite attempting to procure an antidote via a ���bandage��� on the young man, Jesus died from an overdose of the venom during his crucifixion.
This again is uncorroborated by any mainstream commentary or historical record.
5. Scholarly & Contextual Considerations
Historical-Biblical Consensus
Conventional scholarship views the Septuagint as a Greek translation of earlier Hebrew manuscripts, completed over several centuries (3rd���1st century BCE).
Jesus and his followers are generally portrayed in the Gospels as adult men and women (with Jesus likely around 30 during his public ministry, based on Luke 3:23).
The Mark 14 ���naked youth��� passage is extremely brief, offering minimal detail, and does not mention venom, antidotes, or sexual activity.
Potential for Misinterpretation
Hillman���s asserted readings are unsupported by primary textual evidence or established philological methods.
Translational and linguistic arguments for ���drug-soaked bandages��� around genitals are absent in reputable Greek lexicons and commentaries.
Wikipedia Reliability Caveat
The user-supplied text references a Wikipedia page. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, so any contentious claims should be verified via
multiple sources
���such as peer-reviewed articles, recognized classical scholarship, or official university statements.
6. Summary & Caveats
Extraordinary, Fringe Claims
The story about Jesus trafficking prepubescent disciples and using ���medicated bandages��� for venom extraction has
no parallel
in canonical texts, reputable academic studies, or recognized Christian tradition.
Such claims radically depart from established knowledge of Second Temple Judaism, Greco-Roman pharmacology, and early Christian writings.
Verification Urged
Readers are encouraged to
evaluate original sources
. The Mark 14:51���52 passage can be reviewed in Greek and in various translations.
If Hillman���s original podcast statements are accessible, one should examine them
in full
rather than relying on partial summaries or a possibly unvetted Wikipedia entry.
Final Note
The claims attributed to Dr. Hillman���namely that the Greek text shows Jesus using child followers for drug rituals and dying of ���Dipsas venom��� overdose���are
not
documented in mainstream biblical, historical, or classical scholarship. They represent an extremely marginal or fringe viewpoint and should be approached with a high degree of critical scrutiny.
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Dijiste:
Ok I wanted to argue that here Jesus is quoting Psalm 22:15 which says: ���My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.��� I  theorize that ancient people classified a whole range of diseases including death to be a form of Hydrophobia or fear of water and this only later came to be identified as Rabies. It could also refer to a general lack of appetite per se. I argue that the word translated as young man or youth does not mean child - Mark 14:50 ������������������� but anyone under 40, �������������������  it seems to related to the word new and may refer to having a short beard. The reason I associate this figure with Jesus, is because when he is discovered later he is mistaken for a gardener and has a new sheet��� 1x G3495 ������������������� 
Showing Results For:
TR mGNT LXX
N-ASM (1x)
N-ASM
Occurrences:
1 time in 1 verse
Speech:
Noun
Parsing:
Accusative Singular Masculine
Tools

Unchecked Copy BoxMar 16:5 - And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man G3495 sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
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Thought for 10 seconds
Below is a
structured overview
of the interpretive points you���ve raised regarding the ���naked young man��� passages in the Gospel of Mark (Mark 14:50���52; 16:5) and how they might connect to Psalm 22, rabies-like ���hydrophobia,��� and the broader motif of Jesus��� identity after the Resurrection.
1.
Jesus Quoting Psalm 22:15
Context of Psalm 22
In the Passion narratives, Jesus��� cry from the cross������My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?��� (Mark 15:34)���is widely recognized as an echo of
Psalm 22:1
. You point out
Psalm 22:15
as well, which speaks of
extreme thirst
or dryness of the mouth:
���My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.���
Link to Hydrophobia / Rabies Concept
You propose that in the ancient world, a variety of illnesses (including severe thirst or dryness) may have been lumped together under what later becomes recognized as ���rabies.��� In other words, ancient peoples might have described multiple conditions involving an extreme aversion to drinking or an inability to swallow as forms of ���hydrophobia.���
Alternate Possibility (General Thirst or Lack of Appetite)
You also allow for a simpler explanation: the text���s emphasis on thirst or dryness might just reflect
dehydration
, or a broader lack of appetite���rather than a literal fear of water.
2.
Greek Word for ���Young Man��� (�������������������) in Mark 14 & 16
Meaning & Age Range
The term
�������������������
(nean��skos) usually means ���young man,��� but in ancient Greek usage could apply to individuals anywhere from their teens up to their thirties (and sometimes forties).
Etymologically,
��������
(n��os) = ���new��� or ���young,��� so
�������������� / ������������������
refers broadly to a younger male���not necessarily a child or prepubescent boy.
Short Beard / Visual Markers
In some Greek contexts,
��������������
might imply someone old enough to have the beginnings of a beard, but not fully ���middle-aged.���
Contrast to Fringe View
This counters the idea (ascribed to Dr. Hillman or others) that the Gospel text necessarily depicts a
child
. Your reading aligns with mainstream Greek lexicons: ������������������������ is simply ���a young man,��� not a minor.
3.
Mark���s Two ���Young Man��� Scenes: 14:50���52 and 16:5
At the Arrest (Mark 14:50���52)
The text mentions a ���young man��� who is grabbed, then flees
naked
after slipping out of his linen garment.
Some readers see this individual as a
distinct follower
of Jesus. Others propose symbolic or literary parallels (e.g., Joseph escaping Potiphar���s wife in Genesis 39).
At the Tomb (Mark 16:5)
Another (or possibly the same) ���young man��� (�������������������) is seen by the women who discover the empty tomb; he is
sitting on the right side
and wears a
long white robe
(or shining garment).
You note that the Greek lemma is the same root (G3495), though the morphological form in 16:5 is
accusative singular masculine
. This figure tells the women Jesus is risen.
Association with Jesus��� Identity
You propose the possibility that the ���young man��� in Mark 16:5 could be
Jesus himself
, or an angelic stand-in.
In the Gospel of John (20:15), Mary Magdalene mistakes the resurrected Jesus for a
gardener
���a separate account, but you see a parallel: Jesus appears in unrecognizable form and/or different garments.
Your hypothesis: the same individual who ���lost��� his linen garment at the arrest
reappears
with a ���new garment��� after the resurrection, thus linking Mark 14 with Mark 16 as a narrative loop.
4.
Why This Matters: Literary & Theological Implications
Literary Echoes
Mark frequently uses
symbolic or ironic reversals
. If the young man at Gethsemane flees in shame (losing his garment), then at the tomb one appears in a
glorified garment
���perhaps signifying resurrection victory over shame and death.
This interpretation connects with a broader motif of ���
robes of glory
��� in Jewish and early Christian writings (e.g., the transformation motif in Paul���s letters).
Refuting ���Child��� Misinterpretations
By emphasizing that
������������������
need not imply a small child or infant, you undermine any sensational claims that Mark 14:50���52 references a prepubescent.
It aligns better with the standard Greek usage: a younger adult male.
Alignment with Psalm 22
Your note about
���dry mouth���
and the broader theme of thirst or dryness (hydrophobia) might tie in with the ���nakedness��� motif���exposing Jesus and his followers to the vulnerability and suffering of a crucifixion scenario.
Psalm 22 also includes phrases about being surrounded, pierced hands/feet (depending on textual variants), etc. Mark���s Gospel regularly alludes to Psalm 22 in its Passion narrative.
5.
Summary of Your Overall Argument
Psalm 22 Context for Jesus��� Distress
The dryness or thirst references connect with ancient classifications of disease or ���hydrophobia,��� though it might just imply
severe thirst or general distress
.
Young Man = Adult Under 40
���Young man��� (�������������������) in Mark does not connote a child. It���s a flexible term commonly used for adult males of younger age.
Same Figure from Gethsemane to the Tomb?
Mark 14���s fleeing ������������������ possibly reappears as Mark 16���s glowing ������������������ at the tomb.
This could point to
literary craftsmanship
, showing transformation from shame/nakedness to a renewed or angelic appearance.
Possible Identification with Jesus
You hint that this ���young man��� might be the resurrected Christ himself���tying in John���s depiction of Mary Magdalene���s confusion when she sees Jesus as a gardener (John 20:15).
Alternately, some scholars see the figure in Mark 16:5 as an
angel
or heavenly messenger (a separate entity from Jesus).
6.
Concluding Thoughts
Your interpretation underscores
Mark���s intertextual links
(with both Psalm 22 and the Joseph narrative in Genesis), the typical Greek usage of ������������������, and the significance of garments in Mark���s theology of transformation.
It serves as a direct counterpoint to any fringe argument that Mark 14:50���52 implies a minor child or a scandalous scenario.
While not all commentators identify the ���young man��� at the tomb
with
Jesus himself, it���s one of several symbolic theories that attempt to explain Mark���s otherwise cryptic ���naked man ��� white-robed man��� motif.
Ultimately, you���re showing how
close textual reading
of the Greek, combined with an understanding of Hebrew Bible allusions (Psalm 22, Joseph���s escape), can yield a coherent interpretation more in line with
standard philological
and theological methods.
o1
Dijiste:
A list of all of the topics we've discussed
ChatGPT
Hydrophobia, quotes from Psalms, and rabies
Below is a
consolidated list
of the main topics we���ve covered in this conversation, in chronological order:
���RepCog, Framing, Awareness of Motivating Purpose��� by Darin Stevenson
Overview of Darin���s talk, focusing on representational cognition (RepCog), how labeling can diminish wonder, the power of interpretive frameworks, and the importance of recognizing hidden motivations.
Background on Dr. David Charles Ammon Hillman
His status as an American classicist, former professor at Saint Mary���s University of Minnesota, and reasons (as reported) for his firing.
Description of his controversial reinterpretations of Christianity, ancient pharmacy, and the life of Jesus.
Hillman���s Fringe Claims
Allegations about Jesus being involved with a naked youth in Gethsemane.
Assertions of drug-soaked garments and other non-mainstream interpretations of the Gospels.
Wikipedia Excerpt on Hillman���s Danny Jones Podcast Appearance (May 20, 2024)
Claims attributed to Hillman: the Septuagint as the Bible���s ���true original source,��� mistranslations into Hebrew, the Twelve Apostles as prepubescent teenagers, drug-related or ritualistic elements, and an antidote for ���Dipsas venom.���
Counterarguments to Hillman���s Claims
Reference to Mark 14:51���52 and standard scholarly views on the ���naked youth.���
The text only shows someone fleeing after losing a linen garment; no direct mention of drugs or illicit activity.
Parallels with Genesis (Potiphar���s Wife)
The possibility that Mark 14���s fleeing youth echoes the motif of Joseph slipping out of his garment in Genesis 39.
Suggestion that it symbolizes innocence or a literary allusion rather than an explicit scandal.
Psalm 22:15 & Hydrophobia/Rabies Theory
Discussion that Jesus��� cry and extreme thirst may connect to Psalm 22���s language of dehydration.
Speculative link to ancient classifications of illnesses involving ���fear of water,��� or hydrophobia, which later became rabies.
Greek Terminology: ������������������� (nean��skos)
Clarification that ���young man��� in Mark does not necessarily mean a minor or child.
Emphasis that ������������������� can apply to a male in his teens through thirties (or even up to forty).
Identity of the ���Young Man��� in Mark 14 vs. Mark 16
Some theories seeing the same figure at Gethsemane (Mark 14) and at the empty tomb (Mark 16).
Possibility that this figure symbolizes resurrection, transformation, or could even be Jesus himself in a new garment (parallel to John 20���s ���gardener��� scene).
Literary and Theological Implications
How Mark���s narrative might employ Old Testament echoes, symbolism of garments, and depictions of fear/flight to underscore deeper themes of shame, renewal, or resurrection.
Refutation of any notion that the text inherently implies a child or sexual/drug-related context.
These topics, taken together, outline the
full scope
of the conversation: from Darin Stevenson���s ideas on cognition, to Dr. Hillman���s unconventional biblical claims, to your own literary and theological analysis of the relevant Gospel passages and ancient concepts.
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